And Still We Rise

The "And Still We Rise" Podcast (formally known as The Ego Project), is hosted by mental health therapist and group practice owner, Cristine Seidell. It is a space where look deeper into our limiting beliefs or behavioral patterns, seek to understand our authentic self and find new and exciting ways to celebrate the radiance we are meant to bring into the word. Through unscripted and unedited conversations with thought-leaders, therapists, spiritualists, and creatives, And Still We Rise explores how childhood wounding and intentional healing impacts our lives.

All Episodes

And Still We Rise

Shame, Childhood, And Healing

January 05, 2026 • Cristine Seidell • Season 4 • Episode 10

We unpack how shame forms in childhood and why it feels different from guilt, then offer concrete ways to protect learning, autonomy, and connection at home, in school, and in relationships. Scripts, strategies, and mindset shifts help replace criticism with compassionate feedback.

• defining shame as a belief about worth, not behavior
• guilt as a teacher that guides change
• how tone and reactions encode shame during mistakes
• fear, perfectionism, and the I’m in trouble loop
• family systems and sibling dynamics shaping identity
• school labels, confirmation bias, and growth mindset
• co-regulation, connection before correction, and scripts
• feedback as a two-way process that preserves safety
• using repair, do-overs, and specific observations

If you're looking to learn more about this topic or others, feel free to like subscribe and follow "And Still We Rise"!

To learn more about the work Sara does at Rise Therapy Center, or any other services we offer, you can find them below!

https://www.risetherapycenter.com/sara

IG: @seenbysarak

Thank you for tuning into And Still WE Rise! If you would like to learn more about me or the work our practice is doing, feel free to follow us on Instagram at:

@atltherapygirl and @risetherapycenter

Or check us out at www.risetherapycenter.com

Disclaimer: And Still We Rise is meant to provide perspective and meaningful conversations around mental health topics. It is not meant to provide specific therapeutic advise to individuals. If anything in these podcasts resonates, ASWR recommends consulting with your individual therapist or seeking a referral from your primary care physician.

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Hello and welcome back to In Still We Rise. I'm your host, Christine Seidel, and today we have Sarah Kassam back with us for today's topic. And Sarah is a licensed psychotherapist at Rise Therapy Center, and we are going to have her bio linked below. She's been on our show before, so we love all of her wisdom and information. But we would like to get started in today's topic because it's such a great topic. And it is the topic of shame, but specifically shame in childhood. So how shame impacts us, especially throughout our childhood experiences. So thank you for coming and being on the show today. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. It's always good. So tell us a little bit about what is shame and how does it affect us specifically in childhood?

SPEAKER_01: 0:44

Yeah, so shame is this, you know, overarching belief that there is something wrong with us, that we are bad, we are awful, or whatever negative term that we tend to repeat back to ourselves. And I think it really gets instilled within us in childhood because those are our developmental years, right? These are the years that we are forming our own identity, understanding the world around us and how we fit into that and what our role is. I think with shame, it can get developed over time. I don't think it happens overnight. It's the constant critiques or whatever it is that you may be perceiving, even perception of critiques throughout childhood, can make us have this internalized belief that, hey, we are bad. There is something truly wrong with us. I think that's where, you know, it kind of grows too, like in that childhood years because you are still learning, you are still adapting to the world around you, and you get really easily influenced by the people in your environment.

SPEAKER_00: 1:36

Yeah, I love that you said like it's it's a negative belief system about yourself. So like inherently your value or your goodness is like tied to this belief, you know, like I am wrong, I am bad, versus, you know, I made a mistake, or you know, I, you know, hurt somebody's feelings. It's like a core belief about self during that developmental stage. So, you know, I've heard the phrase and I use a lot of times like shame is not a teacher, it's not really teaching us anything. But how do you differentiate between, you know, what is shame and what is like healthy guilt, you know, because we don't want to we don't want a bunch of people like wandering out around being like, I don't have to feel bad about anything. Exactly. Yeah, it's a little a bunch of narcissists out there just you know marching to the beat of their own loud drum. But we do know that most emotions, most feelings are there to teach us something. Shame, not specifically because it is like this negative belief system, but how does it compare to something like healthy guilt?

SPEAKER_01: 2:39

Yeah, and I think um this is that's a good question because I feel like I've heard a lot of podcasts on this. And I know specifically Brene Brown does a fantastic job of this explaining the difference. Like, guilt is like I did something bad versus shame is like I myself am bad inherently, I am a bad person, I am awful. And then the guilt is it gives us, you know, like you said, it's a teacher, it teaches us like, hey, I made this mistake here. I feel really guilty about that. Maybe I shouldn't have talked to this person this way, maybe I shouldn't have treated this person this way. And then when you use that guilt to change your behavior, then that kind of helps you in that process. But I think with shame, what we end up doing is we get sucked into that feeling. We kind of like rotting, yeah. I'm like paralyzed by this. Like I don't want, I don't I can't imagine anything being different because why bother? I'm a terrible person as it is. So guilt can be kind of a motivator in that sense. If it's you know it makes you want to change your behavior and say, hey, that happened and I don't want to do that again. Let me see how I can make things different in the future.

SPEAKER_00: 3:36

Yeah, so like guilt is actually there to like guide us to some learning or to some um ways of doing things differently that's more aligned with who we organically are, whereas shame kind of keeps us stuck in that place where it's like you're so you know rooted in this false belief system about your value and your worth that you can't really, you're not learning anything there. You're kind of stuck in it. So I think that's a great way to differentiate the two. So in what ways is shame kind of developed? You know, like whether you're a parent listening and you're kind of like, I want to be really cognizant of how I, you know, understand how shame is developed, or you're an adult that is noticing that they, you know, operate life with a lot of shame. Like, how does shame really come to exist? You know?

SPEAKER_01: 4:25

Yeah, and I think with mistakes, I think mistakes is like the number one part, like in childhood, as a kid, you're gonna make mistakes, right? You're gonna accidentally spill your juice box, you're gonna accidentally break a glass. Hopefully that's not what the accident is. Right. So these are mistakes that are natural as a part of growing up, as a part of being a kid. So as a parent, it's really crucial about the way you respond to that. So if let's say, for example, your child drops your favorite vase and it shatters into a million pieces in your living room and you're like, I just paid like X amount of money for this, I cannot believe you did this. So again, it depends on how you react. So if the kid hears you say, Can't believe you would do that, how could you be so careless? Why did you do that? That immediately the child is going to interpret as, oh, I'm bad. I can't believe I did that. I can't, my mom thinks of me this way, my parent thinks of me this way. That's how continuous critique like that can form into shame. Whereas instead you can be like, Hey, you made a mistake. I mean, I'm sure that must have been really hard for you. I mean, how did that feel for you? Like, you know, trying to validate the feeling that came up, not necessarily validating the behavior of knocking over the vase, but just saying, like, hey, it was a mistake, and you know, how can we fix this, right? Like, how can I help you feel the feeling and then learn from it too?

SPEAKER_00: 5:39

Yeah. Well, and I think you just like even in that example, that was such a great example because what I experienced was like the emotion that you had around, you know, the breaking of the vase. And I think so many children experience their parents like visceral emotion versus even the content of what they're saying, you know, then then you tie the content to it. And so if you get this emotional reaction and this negative content, that's like integrating in such a deep way for a child. So I think what you're saying, you know, being able to identify what's actually happening without that, without this like content that is, you know, communicating to the child that there's something really wrong and this emotional reaction, like it's it's so much more um neutral for the child to interpret. So, you know, what type of like parenting would probably communicate a lot of shame to a child? Like, are there certain parenting types or styles that really like bring about a lot of shame for a child?

SPEAKER_01: 6:44

That's a great question. I would say I think what I've seen in my work, since I do primarily work with you know children, teens, and then also families, what I've seen is, you know, if there's that constant like fear for the child to make a mistake, like this fear like if I make a mistake, X is gonna happen, or I'm not a good person, or and they're so fearful, like even as they grow up into teenagers and adults, like I'm afraid if I don't do this perfectly, something bad is gonna happen, I'm gonna be a bad person, this person's gonna be mad at me, I'm gonna get in trouble. I think I'm gonna get in trouble is like the biggest one that you know children face all the way to adulthood if that's not resolved, if the shame isn't properly, you know, addressed in childhood. Yeah. I think just understanding that part, like, hey, like we wanna be very mindful of the way that you do parent. Like, not that there's always this fear of like being a bad parent and like doing the wrong thing. And I think it's not even about that, it's just about how can we communicate so that our child hears us and how child feels safe enough to make the mistakes in our presence instead of you know feeling like they have to suffer in silence.

SPEAKER_00: 7:45

Yeah, I think that's a good point. It's like children like developmentally and like whether you're a child or a parent now or whether you're an adult, you know, in childhood we needed to make mistakes. We needed to have like the space to fail, to make mistakes, because that's how we're learning. And I think so many times parents are so, you know, conditional and critical of a child's mistakes. And a lot of times parents are like, well, you know, because I don't want them to like make the same mistakes I did, or I just don't want them to like, you know, uh be in pain or hurt. And you know, I think sometimes it comes from a good place, but I think if it happens habitually, children lose the autonomy to learn in their own way, you know, in the way that are the way that's really gonna teach them something. And, you know, I think really critical parenting, you know, doesn't even give them space sometimes to have their own opinions, you know, doesn't give them space to make mistakes, that perfectionism, that like I'm doing something wrong or I'm gonna be in trouble, like really begins to shape this this child's belief system that they do they're doing something wrong if they're not doing it perfectly, you know, if they're not getting that positive affirmation. I think even in relationships, we see that the that shame wound of I am wrong in intimate relationships. If we can't have conversations, if we can't address like our partner's feedback, like if my partner's giving me this feedback and my first response is to be defensive or deflect or dismiss, we're probably coming from a place of shame. You know, so it's not necessarily something that we get to end up having, this our own internal experience. It's something that people end up having along with us if they're trying to be in relationship or connection with us. But that goes back to like, what did they receive in childhood when they made a mistake? You know, did they have space to kind of say, you know what, I was really upset. That was my favorite, you know, toy, and you took it away from me, and you know, I said this to you, and that wasn't very nice, you know. Are they able to come back and like readdress relationships in childhood either with a parent or peers? And if they aren't, they're probably gonna feel like they're doing something wrong, you know. So, you know, we we've talked a little bit about like parent, child, how it's established. What about like, is there anything in childhood where this would come up where, you know, it's not necessarily from one parent or both parents, but it's is there any other way that the shame kind of comes up when it's not directly from parent to child?

SPEAKER_01: 10:14

Yeah, I mean, I think it could also come up from seeing like interact, like parent interactions with other family members or family members' interactions. Like if we consistently see like our um, I will just give an example. If I consistently see my mom and dad fighting, I as a child, like you know, especially depending on my age, too. If I consistently see this argument, this disagreement, the child, me is going to internalize that and be like, hey, is this my fault? Am I causing my parents to argue? Is this what's like does this mean I'm bad? It like immediately, like the child will be very, you know, egocentric in that moment. Like, you know, we want to make sense of our world and the way that we're doing it is by attaching our meaning to it. Like, what is our role in that? Yeah. I think that can be really dangerous because then again, it leads to this constant doubting of oneself and fear of making a mistake, this walking on eggshells, people pleasing, those are some things that manifest in adulthood, which really starts when we're a child and we're even seeing like high conflict families too. That's what we see in children as they come to therapy too.

SPEAKER_00: 11:18

Yeah, I think family systems, you know, oftentimes when we talk about like, you know, childhood experiences and development, we get really like focused on the parent-child relationship. But this can happen in like family systems with siblings, and you know, especially if it's with siblings, you can watch how potentially one sibling is treated when they act a certain way. And as you know, another sibling will start being like, okay, like I gotta make sure that I'm this way, or I won't get that love, or I won't, I'll, or I'll be treated that way. So I think you know, even if it's not directly the relationship between a parent and child, oftentimes siblings can start teaching us about how we have to be, or if this happens, then that you know, they're building those belief systems around that. So, how do we start working ourselves out of shame?

SPEAKER_01: 12:07

It's a fantastic question. And it's one that I'm still working on.

SPEAKER_00: 12:11

Are we all still kind of waking up to our shame narratives? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 12:14

And I think, I mean, if we're talking in terms of like for the child specifically, like we don't want to perpetuate that shame in the child. I think one of the most important things as a parent is like you want to shield your child from experiencing negative emotions. And sometimes they do need to experience that negative emotion on their own. They need to, you know, experience that mistake on their own so that they can develop that autonomy and so that the sh it doesn't, their guilt doesn't turn into shame. Right, right. There's a part of us that really needs to experience that so we can learn from it. And it's hard because as a parent, you want the best for your kid. You don't want your kid to be, you know, making mistakes or doing the things that we used to do back in our day. So it's difficult to like, you know, let that shield go as a parent to let our parent or our parents, let our kids make that mistake and learn from that mistake too. And it's just being extremely mindful, even as the parent, sometimes we have some residual shame, right? Yeah, about being a good parent.

SPEAKER_00: 13:10

Like if I if my child makes mistakes, it's somehow a reflection of the parent I am, which would be a reflection of the person I am. So yeah, I mean, sometimes subconsciously we're projecting that onto our children. I mean, whenever it's shame, we're projecting something, but I think, yeah, like being attuned to like is this coming from like what my child needs versus what I'm I'm feeling within myself as a parent or as a person? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 13:38

Do you have like an example of like how like parents can, like, for example, if a child does make a mistake or like in school if they have a lot of behavior issues, how do you suggest like parents kind of confront that in a way that doesn't perpetuate a shame cycle?

SPEAKER_00: 13:53

Yeah, I mean, I think that you can take this kind of into any environment. You know, of course, parent, child, like depending on their developmental stage, you know, you want to meet them where they're at, which, you know, always kind of tell parents to like neutrally address you know negative behavior. You know, so if if if if a child's emotions are really big, you can say, hey, I can tell you're really fizzy or you're really angry, and I can understand that, you know, that wasn't a kind thing that somebody said to you, and I'm wondering if there is, you know, a way we can feel this anger that doesn't, you know, harm ourselves, harm others, you know, so kind of just neutrally attuning to the child, especially at the younger ages where they're learning about mistakes and big feelings, or if they knock over a vase, be like, uh-oh, the vase knocked over, accidents happened. What do you think we need to do to help the situation? Oh, we can clean it up, you know. And so the parent is there to kind of model and attune to what it's what it feels like and what it's like to be regulated even through mistakes or difficulties. I think as you know, people get older, you know, we used to use the the phrase constructive criticism, but it still has criticism in it, you know. And so now I say, you know, it's it's good to be open to feedback. And what that does is it creates a space where we can receive things, but it's to learn and grow. And I I like to tell people it's always great to kind of preface preface feedback with like something good so that you can kind of prepare them for, you know, the conversation. So even if it's gonna be a really difficult conversation, I like to frame it with like, hey, so we need to talk about something that's gonna be kind of tough, but it's in the hopes that we can find a solution that we both agree to, um, and that we feel good about moving forward. And then, you know, if it's something really difficult, that's kind of how I frame it so that they're prepared for it, but they know that I'm really doing this from a place of like resolution and staying in connection. And or if it's something that like somebody needs to learn from, I like to say, you know, listen, I want you to know how much I really, really value like what you bring and how you do this and what you know, whatnot. And I've noticed this area here that tends to be something that is a challenge. And I'm wondering if you'd like to, you know, receive some support or if you have any questions on how to do it differently, because overall, this is where we want to get. Yeah, you know, so whether that's my children or whether that's like people I work with, it's a way to be support, providing feedback because sometimes feedback is hard. Sometimes our kids need to hear hard things, sometimes you know, our peers we need to talk about difficult things, but it's about maintaining that connection of I'm here with you as a means of growing and learning. Right, connecting before correcting. And learning for you to do that. I tell that, yes, yes, connecting before correcting. And I think that's a really good way to regulate, you know, yourself, the situation, and that's where we really end up finding resolution. So that's kind of how I like to um kind of utilize that work. But I think that all comes down to being able to be in compassion, whether that's self-compassion, if you realize you made a mistake and and you need to receive feedback or do things differently, or if somebody you care about has made a mistake, you know, so self-compassion and then compassion. So can you speak to like how that can help people work through shame?

SPEAKER_01: 17:14

Yeah, I think the more compassion that we have for ourselves, granted, like the the better we'll feel about ourselves, right? Like we're gonna have a more positive outlook on our mistakes. I think people talk about this. I've heard this a lot lately, at least from my kid clients, like the parents, about like how in school they're teaching them growth mindset versus fixed mindset and how sometimes kids can get stuck in that fixed mindset when they have this negative exposure throughout their entire childhood. Like, hey, like I'm bad, I made a mistake, I'm bad. This happened, I'm bad, I messed up, I did this, I'm bad. I messed up in school. Like, think there's that label that a lot of kiddos at school get if they're you know the troublemaker or whatever, and that's and then they're looking for all the areas that that's gonna continue. Yeah, right. And our brain, you know, just tends to want to you know verify. I think it's called like confirmation bias. Yep. It's about like wanting to verify our belief. We find everything we can, and same with children, like I think they're a little bit more susceptible to that too. Like if they're constantly told at school, hey, you're a troublemaker, you're you know, you're always making the teacher run around. Like, obviously, that kid is gonna take that real personal and understand, oh, maybe uh maybe I'm bad. Like, I don't, yeah, there's no need for me to do that. So I think the more self-compassion that we teach our kids how to practice too, the easier it'll be for them to accept that I made a mistake, but it's not the end of the world, and I still have a future. Like, you know, things are still gonna get better. It's not the end all be all. I'm still loved, I'm still valued. And I think that's what kind of gets lost in translation whenever we do have these labels placed on kiddos.

SPEAKER_00: 18:42

Yeah, and I love that you brought up like the school system too, that this is another environment. So so can work be. It's another environment where we can reinforce more, you know, more positive messaging, more, you know, messaging that serves us versus hinders us, you know, and creating containers, especially in childhood, to reinforce like the things that we can see that are good, to find ways for resolution, to redo, retry, versus so corrective and so conditioning. Um, I think that the more we can do that, the better we are to to have compassion for ourselves and for others. And that ultimately is like we're all in this human experience trying to figure out how to do how to do this, right? And we have to like recognize that that comes with the challenges. You know, growth never occurs when we're stagnant, you know. Everything's great and if we're doing everything right, there is no growth. So, you know, I think that shame draws our attention to what it is that it needs to be released so we can grow and we can, you know, become the most authentic, you know, part of who we are. And that's one way to do it is by working through whatever we're identifying as as shame.

SPEAKER_01: 19:54

I think it's uh it's funny, like when you were mentioning feedback, something that I keep thinking about is like these memes on like Instagram of like. Like when your boss calls you in for feedback and immediately you're like, I say I'm open to feedback, but then I get the feedback and I'm like, oh, what I'm not or am I just hopeful I never get it? Yeah. Yes. And I think I think you made a great point. Like feedback doesn't have to be this big, scary monster thing for our kids, too. Like feedback on their behavior doesn't necessarily have to be this like really terrible negative thing. It can really just be coming from that place of like love and caring and wanting growth from them. And I think that's the important distinction. Like, even as adults, that you know, you talked about navigating shame as adults, like understanding that feedback is not always negative. Like someone having something to say or like wanting to help isn't necessarily an attack on you. And our defense system doesn't have to go up right away.

SPEAKER_00: 20:43

Yeah. And I think that word feedback is about feeding and then getting something back, right? So like even as parents, as like coworkers, as whatever, like our perception of a mistake or our perception of how things need to be done, if we're stepping into a place of feedback, we better be available to receive something back that might help us understand something more, you know. And I think sometimes when we are in authority positions, like as parents, we're giving feedback with the intention that you just take it. Right. You just accept it. I'm perfect. I'm telling you this, right? And that's not the reality of it. Like we are giving feedback and help and hopes of helping, but we don't really know how to help fully until we get something back. There may be something going on with that child or that person or that partner that we are unaware of that, if we knew that, we would probably have some information that might help us better understand how to move forward. So I think it's important that we also look at like instead of criticism, construction, constructive criticism really isn't saying I'm open to hearing what you have to say, but feedback is like this is something I'm going to share. But I also know I need to be open to hearing what you say. It's more of a conversation as opposed to a conversation. Exactly. Yeah. So I think that like when we can learn to do that with others, like we also know what it feels like to receive. And so we can we can be more open and available to being a part on either side of that.

SPEAKER_01: 22:09

So and what what would you say about like giving feedback to let's say like our young kiddos, right? Like the toddlers, and we that's where we start seeing what those tantrums were. I think that's a question that I get from parents often too. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that. Like, how can we give our feedback to to our kiddos? So one thing that I've talked about is like co-regulation, the importance of maintaining our call so that our child can model our behaviors. But I wanted to hear what you think about that.

SPEAKER_00: 22:35

I think that's so important, you know, because like those ages can be very difficult because they are no longer this little bundle that you, you know, that you carry and and hold, and and they're ready to go explore the world. And and you know, like they don't have a lot of the natural, you know, I don't even want to say natural because they they haven't, it's not necessarily natural. We learn what's painful by receiving pain. So we fall and skin our knee, or if you touch a hot stove, or if we slap our little toddler friend, they slap us back, you know. So they are so primed for having to learn in really difficult ways. And so parents have to understand like that phase is going to be difficult, and what they need is like to be in regulation with them themselves so they can teach their children at the age that they're developmentally available for. And in the toddler phase, like they need minimal like content, but they need it to stick. So that's why they love songs that repeat themselves, that are sing songies. I always tell parents, you know, this is a great time to really make impactful statements in a way that a child can receive. So I like to say things like hands are for helping, not for hurting. And yeah, and and finding ways to correct the behavior. You know, we might have to take the hand and pull it down because you know, they like to smack you in the face and stuff like that. And it's a way to hold boundaries to teach them about the world, but without projecting our own frustrations because it is a very difficult, they're like little tyrants, you know, just hijack our our life and they have no like no, you know, remorse about it really. And so it's about finding what is the behavior I need to correct, but how do I need to be regulated within that, you know? And sometimes when things are really hurtful, we have to, we have to say, you know, hands are for helping, not for hurting, you know, smacking mom's face is hurt is hurting, you know, we have to tell them what it is because they are they don't they don't have any pattern of memory to go off of, you know, this is them learning in the world. So, you know, being present with children at their developmentally appropriate ages to speak to them and teach them, like they are not little adults, they are children learning, and you are a teacher is really important to understand and and to seek support when you need support. Like, what does this developmental age need to learn this behavior or this, you know, rest the reciprocity of relationships? What do they need? And then how do I give them that? So yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 25:02

And also, I think I love that you mentioned that because I I think something that we talk about in parent-child interaction is like the importance of like play as well, like you know, playing as a way to connect with them before you know correcting. I keep saying connecting before correcting, it's like stuck in my head. That's the key.

SPEAKER_00: 25:17

Yeah, and it's just you know, honestly, it's the same in our intimate partnerships, you know, we're not really receptive to hearing something if our partner is not connected to us. If our partner calls us and starts like just telling us, like, you know, what they're frustrated with, what they believe we did wrong, all this, that, and the other, we're shut down. We're not receiving that information. But if our partner calls us and say, Hey, you know, I want to talk to you about this, it's you know, it's something that I don't want you to feel like you did anything wrong or that you're in trouble or or that I'm upset with you. It's just that I I I want to be able to talk to you about this so we can find a way to work through it. And then you're already prepared for what it is they have to say. Hopefully you can receive that and and understand the perspective they're coming from, but you're inevitably going to say something back in terms of giving them some understanding where that's coming from. So again, in any place, like even in play, teaching a child, you're you're showing them something, but they're naturally going to give you feedback. You know, they may be really angry about something, and in play, as you're trying to help guide them, they're still resisting. There's something as a parent to understand there, you know, and the same thing in relationships, when there's resistance, when they can't receive it, there's something that you need to be aware of. Whether it's something you can change or or soften or become more regulated in, or whether it's something they need to feel safer in receiving. So shame is shame's a funky little friend, I'll tell you that.

SPEAKER_01: 26:52

I think something that's helped help me with my shame also is just understanding so much of my life or like projections. I think people sometimes often project how they're feeling. And the sooner you understand that, the easier it is to not personalize that you have mirrors to something in their life that they either want or that they feel like they see in us, and what that's really helped me get through my own personal shame.

SPEAKER_00: 27:14

So oh, absolutely. And I think you know, if you can do that individual work, it makes your life so much easier. Makes your life so much easier.

SPEAKER_01: 27:22

I see you kind of jumping in about how we should all do therapy. Is that what I'm doing?

SPEAKER_00: 27:28

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I think everybody, I think if we start that in childhood, you know, having our our places and spaces that we feel safe to talk about our experiences, we would have a much more regulated culture and collective. But if only I was able to run the world, who knew? Yeah. Well, is there anything else you would like to share about Shane?

SPEAKER_01: 27:48

No, I think I think we've hit everything that I was thinking about.

SPEAKER_00: 27:52

That was a good that was a good conversation. As always, I appreciate your feedback and your perspective. And for anybody who would like to learn more, we're gonna have some suggestive videos, and of course, we definitely have more content from Sara that we'll add here. So thank you for joining us, Sarah. Thank you for being here today. Thank you for having us. And we'll see you guys next time. Bye for now.