And Still We Rise
The "And Still We Rise" Podcast (formally known as The Ego Project), is hosted by mental health therapist and group practice owner, Cristine Seidell. It is a space where look deeper into our limiting beliefs or behavioral patterns, seek to understand our authentic self and find new and exciting ways to celebrate the radiance we are meant to bring into the word. Through unscripted and unedited conversations with thought-leaders, therapists, spiritualists, and creatives, And Still We Rise explores how childhood wounding and intentional healing impacts our lives.
And Still We Rise
The Witness Effect: How to Hold Space for Someone's Grief
What if everything you thought you knew about grief was oversimplified? Therapist Taylor Strong challenges the notion that grief follows a neat, linear path through five stages, revealing instead the complex and deeply personal nature of loss.
"Grief is this really unique human experience that's specific to who we are and our relationship with the person," Taylor explains. Rather than a straightforward journey from denial to acceptance, grief often manifests as an unpredictable cycle of emotions that can shift dramatically within the same day. One moment might bring peace that a loved one is no longer suffering; the next might bring profound questioning about why they had to leave at all.
The physical manifestation of grief—what Taylor calls "somatic grief"—is equally complex. Some experience insomnia while others can't stop sleeping. Some feel emotions intensely while others experience numbness as their nervous system protects them from overwhelming pain. These varied responses aren't signs of grieving "incorrectly" but reflect the unique ways our bodies process profound loss.
Perhaps most illuminating is Taylor's insight into what grievers truly need versus what well-intended supporters often provide. Comments like "they're in a better place" or "they're no longer in pain," while meant to comfort, can actually create disconnection. What grievers need isn't solutions but presence—someone who can witness their pain without trying to fix it. As Taylor beautifully puts it: "I understand that this person is experiencing something complex and deep, and if I can just be here for them and hold space, that is a gift in itself."
Whether you're navigating your own grief journey or supporting someone through theirs, this conversation offers profound guidance on honoring the messy, non-linear process of living with loss while finding connection and meaning along the way.
Check out these links to learn more about Taylor Strong and Rise Therapy Center:
Link to Taylor: https://www.risetherapycenter.com/taylor
Link tonTaylor's Blog: https://www.risetherapycenter.com/blog/holding-space-for-grief-the-power-of-sitting-in-someones-pain
Find Taylor on Instagram: @taytalkstherapy
Thank you for tuning into And Still WE Rise! If you would like to learn more about me or the work our practice is doing, feel free to follow us on Instagram at:
@atltherapygirl and @risetherapycenter
Or check us out at www.risetherapycenter.com
Disclaimer: And Still We Rise is meant to provide perspective and meaningful conversations around mental health topics. It is not meant to provide specific therapeutic advise to individuals. If anything in these podcasts resonates, ASWR recommends consulting with your individual therapist or seeking a referral from your primary care physician.
Hello and welcome to. And Still we Rise. I'm your host, christine Seidel, and today we have therapist Taylor Strong. Welcome, taylor. Hello, thank you for having me. Yes, thank you for joining us. I would love to read a bio about Taylor and just kind of introduce you a little bit to who she is and the work that she does before we get into our topic, if that's okay, all right.
Speaker 1:It is through her own transformative life experiences that Taylor made the decision to obtain her master's in social work After graduating from the University of Southern California. She cultivated her passion for therapy through education and application of all that she learned. The challenges she has experienced has given her a deep sense of empathy and a strong desire to help others navigate their own struggles. She's particularly drawn to working with adult women, as she understands firsthand how complex and multifaceted life can be, balancing careers, relationships, personal growth and everything in between. Taylor believes that real healing begins when individuals can feel secure enough to be vulnerable, to explore their emotions and to confront whatever is holding them back. Yay, welcome, taylor. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:I have the honor of working alongside Taylor, so I've seen firsthand just the amazing work she does with her clients and we're so happy to have her on the podcast to talk about something that a lot of people really have a difficult time talking about and I think as a culture, we have a difficult, difficult time talking about and that is grief. Yeah, yeah. So you know you work a lot specifically with people in the grief space. You know whether it's individuals, you know they're going through that themselves and or you know family members that are trying to support others through that process. So, as complicated as grief is, how would you kind of describe it and what are some of the misconceptions around grief?
Speaker 2:I think that's a great question and a great place to start, because I think that grief is just one of these really unique human experiences that we have and it's very, you know, unique to who we are and our experience just with the person. And I do kind of want to say that, like I think in this podcast, like the grief that we're going to be mostly focusing on today is the grief of like losing a loved one, but I think it is important to note that there's so many other experiences that can create grief right, like life transitions, you know, loss of a job, loss of a home these types of things can all bring about the feelings of grief. But I think that mostly today, like, we're talking about losing a loved one, right, and experiencing that kind of grief, um, but I just think it's important to touch on that as well Um, I think that a huge misconception, or something that I think a lot of people think, is that we cycle through grief in this linear progression, right, like we just go through, and we move through these stages really neatly, like we have, I think, it's denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and then we have this like we reach this sort of like acceptance, right and the fact of the matter is, is that, just like, oversimplifies this intensely complex process, right? So what we know is that everyone's experience with grief is so different, it's so unique. It's unique to the person, it's unique to the relationship that they have with the deceased. It is something that is going to look different from person to person and we just can't expect that it's going to be the same for everyone and we're going to be able to just neatly move through this process, right? And I think that grief is really unpredictable, right Like?
Speaker 2:And that can be really frustrating for people who are experiencing grief. Because I think that one day you might be in this place where you're like oh, you know, like I, I understand, like I do feel, like you know, like I'm, I'm, I'm having peace with the fact that you know my loved ones no longer in pain and no longer suffering, right? But then that very same afternoon, you might be why did this have to happen? I miss them so much. I'm like why can't they just be here? Why did they have to get sick in the first place? And people feel so bewildered by this, right Like. It's just so exhausting in so many ways to just cycle through all of these emotions. But I think that when we can allow people to understand that we're not just going to be able to start here and be in this and then get over it, we sort of introduce the concept more of moving forward into life rather than moving on and just accepting the loss.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree, and I think that, like what you said, is like grief is such this unique human experiences, because we just can't understand it fully. You know, when we look at, when we look at from a therapeutic perspective, being able to come to terms with things, you know, we go through this awareness and acceptance process and for death specifically, it's like it's so hard for us to wrap our hands, our heads around like what is this and why did it happen? I mean, there's just not a ton of answers for us, and so it's. It does get very messy, and that's where you're saying, like you find yourself in this very kind of like chaotic place of like I felt great yesterday, why am I feeling this way today? And just being able to digest it in a linear way is just, it's almost impossible. So so tell us a little bit of how grief kind of shows up, like you know how it shows up physically, spiritually, emotionally, like how do people kind of experience grief from that perspective?
Speaker 2:so I think that that I also love this question too, because I think that what we're talking about too, with, like, the physical manifestation of grief and otherwise known as somatic grief, is so important to talk about because I think that a lot of times people experience that and they think, like there's something really wrong with me, right, but like it is very common to have loss of appetite, you know, sleep disturbances, these kinds of things that happen when we're experiencing like really intense grief, like that will show up for us.
Speaker 2:We have to be really mindful just of you know, leaning into, you know sort of, I guess, more so tapping into our resources when things like that are happening, because those kinds of things can really get away on you, right, like, and it can be really exhausting because you have to think like some people. For them it's like they just want to sleep all the time they they're feeling, and it's it's like that with depression too. Like it's either you are the sleep comes very easily and you have a lot of it, or you're not able to sleep at all and you're up thinking and your mind is going, and we know how important sleep is for mental health when you are in the best way, but you add on that component of grief, and it can be really really difficult when you have these physical symptoms as well, and this somatic feelings and and our somatic grief that you're feeling. Yeah, I definitely think that that is a conversation that is really important to have, too, with someone who's grieving is how are you feeling physically Right? It's not.
Speaker 1:It's not the mental energy that's being expended all the time, it's not the mental energy that's being expended all the time, yeah, and I, and I think it.
Speaker 1:What's interesting is like, just like grief itself, even the physical manifestation of that can be just varied and and across the spectrum, based upon the person. I've had people come in, you know, relatively soon after a loss and they're like I, literally, I'm just numb, like I can't, I can't access really anything, I can't access any feelings, and I'm like, yeah, your nervous system is pretty taxed right now, like it's kind of protecting you to kind of slowly digest the, the trauma and the way that the nervous system has the availability to do. And so, you know, a lot of times people will be like I feel like I should be like, you know, not getting out of bed, or I feel like I should, you know, be anxious all the time, but I actually don't access anything. You know, right, yeah, again, it's like one of those you know manifestations that if we could only say this is what you're going to experience in this way, it would create such a support for people, but it's so different for every single person, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think, going back to what we were talking about before, just about it being such a unique experience right Cause you just like the sleep example, but also like what you're talking about is you might have people who you know they're just feeling all the feelings and they feel like they're feeling too much, and then you have someone who is not able to feel at all. Or you know you have people who do want to just lay in bed and they that's really all they can handle at the time. But then there's others who go into this kind of hyper productivity mode where it's like they just want to do, do, do, do, do you know, to kind of push down. You know the feelings or feel like you know that's what makes them feel better and we have to be really aware of that again, that it is unique to the griever and who they are as a person, and oftentimes you know that may change, right, like that may look different day to day as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, before we started recording, we actually said something we were kind of talking about how you know grief. You know, of course we, we physically have the manifestations, emotionally we go through like all the different feelings. You know we're, we're cycling through that whole grief process over and all over the place. But spiritually, grief is a is a difficult thing to grapple with as well. What are some of your thoughts about that?
Speaker 2:So I have a couple of thoughts about this, but I think that, yeah, I think that spiritually it's okay. I just want to tell people that, like you're going to have questions, right. I think that I talked to a lot of people who are grieving and they kind of they want answers, right, like, like you had mentioned before, we just we don't really know right, like we, we don't definitively know, we don't have the answers and I think that we want them. I think that that makes us feel like we might feel better. But I think that when you add in that spiritual component, it can either be helpful for people or sometimes it can leave them with more questions, and that's okay too.
Speaker 2:And that's where I think that, as someone who's supporting someone with grieving, it's okay to say you know, it's okay to not have the answers right, it's okay that you're questioning this right now.
Speaker 2:It doesn't make you a bad person, it doesn't make you a bad Christian or whatever it is that's making you question these things.
Speaker 2:But I do think that that can be complicated at times and I think too, you know, I wanted to bring cultural competency into the conversation.
Speaker 2:I think that that's really important when we are supporting people in grief to understand where they are spiritually and what that means to them and I think that that does look so different person to person, and for us to be respectful and aware that people have different practices and traditions and it's going to be different in depending on their culture, right, and the thing is is, if that's not something that we understand, it's something that we should ask and we should be respectful to the griever that if they're not in a place to kind of give us that explanation because they may not be, that, may not be something that they have the capacity for we ask someone who is a loved one to them, who maybe would be able to give us that information, and we come in this open way of supporting them and meeting them where they are as who they are and what their culture is, and I think that that is so important and I know we're going to get into later just like well-meaning, you know yeah, that's actually where I was.
Speaker 1:My mind was already like, yeah, remembering some situations and you know, I think there's there. This is such a dynamic concept to think about. Like, when you're looking at this relationally, you have the person grieving and then you have these loved ones of that person who genuinely are well-meaning, but as a culture we are highly uncomfortable with death and loss and people being in a grieving state, like we're very uncomfortable on how to attune and attend and I think sometimes that spirituality component can be a little bit of of that, that harm. That can be done too, right? Yeah, If we're coming in to bring the spirituality because we're uncomfortable with their, with their discomfort, you know, it can get a little, a little messy.
Speaker 1:So what are some things that people do Well meaning people right Cause they genuinely they're there in that space, but they're probably highly uncomfortable? What are some things that people do Well-meaning people right Cause they genuinely they're there in that space, but they're probably highly uncomfortable? What are some of the things that they may be doing in a very well-meaning way but can actually be really not helpful to somebody who's grieving?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think too to touch on something you just said too, along those lines like that, that is, us making an assumption too that someone holds the same belief that we have, right, and I think we have to be really, really careful not to do that, especially in these situations when we are trying to attune and attend to someone in their grief and in their experience, right. So I think that you know, I think that people will say things like they're in a better place now, right, and the unfortunate thing is is they are well-meaning, they are trying to alleviate the pain of the griever, they are trying to connect with the griever and they are trying to fix their pain, Right, and this is an unfixable situation. This isn't something that you know. And I've one of my, one of my clients made a comment just unless somebody had a time machine, right, and I'm like, right, absolutely Like, unless someone had a time machine, like we can't change this, but again operating on that assumption that they hold the same belief as you. But then take it a step further. I think that when we make a comment like that, we are diminishing the pain a bit, in a way of making the griever feel disconnected from their grief, because they will start to question themselves like, well, why can't I just accept that they're in a better place? Why do I have to feel so sad right now? Why can't I get peace from this statement? And then they're kind of in this like internal sort of conflict. From this comment, right, and although it's well-meaning, it's now kind of created this space that the griever feels disillusioned, disconnected and hurting even more.
Speaker 2:Right, and I think that another one that people like to say is they're no longer in pain. You know, that's true, that is 100% true. This person is no longer in pain, and I think that that is one of these kind of tricky ones that does feel like something good to say. But again, I think that that's like one of these things where, when someone is acutely grieving, especially, they're not in a space to hear that, because they're thinking right, they're not in pain.
Speaker 2:But why did they even have to be sick in the first place? Why did they have to be gone? It doesn't make me feel better that they're not. Nothing makes me feel better that they're not here, because that's all I really want, right? Is? I just want that their physical presence. That's what I yearn for, that's what I'm experiencing right now, and so I was also thinking just like on what is and isn't helpful to say right. And I think that some people have the argument that saying I'm sorry is not the right thing to say. I personally feel that I'm sorry is an okay thing to say you are sorry, you are sorry that this person lost their loved one, but I think, kind of partnering it with something such as I'm sorry, I see that this is so painful for you and I'm here, I'm here for you, right.
Speaker 1:That's the key. That's the key right there I think you just hit the nail on the head. Is everything else that you kind of use as examples was almost a way to escape actually connecting with a person that's grieving. It's almost like, hey, I want to be here for you, but I really want you to move to a place of acceptance.
Speaker 2:I want you to move through this so I'm not so uncomfortable with this anymore.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what you're saying on the other side of like I'm sorry, I can see how painful this is for you is somebody actually connecting to the griever to witness them. You know, instead of the griever feeling somewhat isolated, witness them. You know, instead of that, the griever feeling somewhat isolated and disconnect, disconnected in their pain and with the shame of like, well, should I be feeling like this? Am I, am I like a bummer? Am I bringing down the vibe? Like are people going to not want to hang out with me?
Speaker 1:And you know, when somebody is experiencing something, really what we all genuinely need is to be witnessed in that, yeah, it's a well-meaning. People want to be in a space with you, but, goodness, to see that pain and to witness that pain, that can be really uncomfortable for people. So something just as as simple but genuine as I'm sorry, I can see you is so powerful, I think, for people when they're in that place. Yes, absolutely yeah. What are your thoughts about timelines? You know, because you know people, I think, are fine, understanding that grief can be a very intense experience, but not everybody has the same comfort with the timelines that people may be in and their own grief, and then timelines around people being there to help, attune and attend to them in that grief.
Speaker 2:No, I think that's interesting because I think that people do put parameters on, like the timelines of how long people are allowed to grieve, or you know how long they're allowed to do this or that after the loss of a loved one. Right, like I can't, I can't believe she's already doing that, you know. Like you know he's only been. I can't believe she's dating again. He's only been gone for a year, right, been gone for a year. Right, either side of that, yeah, right, and so it's just. I think that is you know in, I know in the in the DSM, right, so our diagnostic manual that we use as social workers and LPCs, so there is something called prolonged grief and they used to call it complicated grief and, and I believe it used to be only six months and then they extended it out to 12 months for adults and I think it's six months for minors. But our children, but they say that if you are experiencing these like really intense symptoms of grief, that we kind of connect to that really acute phase of grief, such as like when things just have transpired and the physical symptoms, the very emotional, all of these things are taking place, that if it's taking place and this is just like sort of the clinical perspective, but if it's taking place longer than a year and those kinds of their perspective of timelines and what's accepted and what's not, again, it's really going to depend on the person, right? And I've talked about this with my clients too, just like the way grief can look so different.
Speaker 2:You know, I think in our life, like we have expectations right Of like we, we understand, like what's normal and what's not, in a sense of like we have our parents and we have our grandparents and we have our siblings, you know, maybe or not. And then there's us, right, we know our parents are roughly however much older than we are. We know our grandparents are however much older than we are. We know our grandparents are however much older than we are, right, so it is likely in our timeline of life that there will be a time in our life that we will live without our grandparents, and that is just something that our brain understands, that's something we inherently understand from. You know, basically, once we kind of understand the concept of death and the finality of death and all of these things. But I think that when we are in a situation where there is a traumatic or unexpected death that takes place, that takes place out of the natural progression of life and what that timeline looks like.
Speaker 2:That may take a lot longer for someone to cycle through grief and there may be more resurfacing that takes place in in it. You know, in versus a situation of if you have someone who passed, who's lived a very long life and has passed away peacefully, that looks really differently, right? And then you also add on people who have multiple losses, right? So we know that compounded grief is a thing, so you experience one loss and you experience another and it can bring up feelings of the previous grief and exacerbate those symptoms, right? So you know it's. I do think that a lot of these questions do kind of circle back to this answer of it is so unique to that person and their experience and we have to be compassionate towards that that they will go through their grief in the way that is unique to them and there really is no timeline for that. And you know, take the clinical stuff out, that is just the case.
Speaker 1:So and I think you made a good point, like also how that grief transpired, you know, and? And what support system does does someone really have in order to process their grief? You know, I, when I was in high school, I lost my little sister in a car accident, very tragic, very sudden. We were only two years apart. And you know, I didn't realize it till years later, after I had, you know, gone into therapy. But at that time I couldn't process my grief. You know, my family was grieving, my parents were grieving. There wasn't really availability for me to actually grieve, you know, because there was no support system.
Speaker 1:And when I would be with my friends, of course, like the initial few weeks after the accident, you know, they were all there, they were, they were grieving too. But I remember, like coming, you know, talking to this poor little boyfriend, you know, after about three months, and I was still kind of trying to process it, and he was like don't you think it's time to move on? And I remember being so shocked by that because I didn't even feel like I had begun grieving. And I think that that's also something we can note that grief can also be suppressed, and repressed if it's not safe to process your grief If you really don't have the support system, the resources, the capacity. And I think about a lot of you know, children I've worked with or adults who have had losses in childhood and very complicated after effects. Sometimes they come to therapy and have not even begun to process grief.
Speaker 1:And so I think that's something to acknowledge is like not everybody has the support system and resources to do that work, while meeting people are not. Maybe they're not even there, you know, whether physically or emotionally.
Speaker 2:Right, Exactly they. They may have people who are there physically to support them and do, but they are not emotionally available to support that person in a way that they need at that time. And that is huge right. Because I think too, that kind of creates this cycle of feeling uncomfortable in your grief and sort of trying to mask it. And as we know, it doesn't just go away, right, it goes somewhere unless we kind of process through it. And even if we do, it continues to come up, but when we repress it and we're just not allowed that space it can be really damaging.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it definitely can, and so I think that that really resonates about how important it is to have community or a support person or whatnot. So what suggestions or what recommendation would you make to our listeners, to our viewers, whether they are somebody who's going through the grieving process themselves or somebody who is witnessing somebody going through the grieving process and just genuinely wants to show up in a way to support them, whether through their words or support in other ways. What would you recommend would be the first steps to begin processing and digesting something so complex, but in a healthy way, right?
Speaker 2:So I think that you know, like listening to this and sort of like getting this perspective is helpful, right and um, I was able to write a blog that we published on our website at rise, and that blog is specifically focused on holding space and not jumping to fix the grief of the griever right. Like. Viewing it from this lens of that, I understand that this person that I am in connection with and in relationship with is experiencing something that is very complex and very deep, and if I can just be here for them and hold space for them and witness them and honor that pain that they're experiencing, that is a gift in and of itself, which is, per our conversation before, very hard to do. Right, and you are allowed to feel that in your body and say this feels really uncomfortable to me. My natural inclination is to fix right, like that's why, when somebody passes away, you automatically have three or four lasagnas sitting on your counter, because I'm healing you through my lasagna.
Speaker 2:I don't know what to do, so I'm going to make food, right? No, I, or I'm going to send which, which are all really wonderful, yes, absolutely yes, and.
Speaker 2:I think that those things are wonderful too, but if this is someone that you are in connection with, who is like really looking at you to be this supportive person, I think that letting yourself and allowing yourself to be that person who just holds space for them, without trying to fix that, is what is so needed for the person who is grieving and all of those other things, like you know, like honoring the loved one and you know, like maybe creating rituals and things like that. Those things can come right, but like they may not, just understanding and appreciating that they may not be in the space that they are there yet where they can sort of wrap their mind around those things that may not feel good to them, and also being open and being understanding to them just about what their needs are and who they are uniquely as an individual. I think that caring for someone who's grieving is really difficult, right, that's you pouring into someone who really likely does not have the capacity to give anything back.
Speaker 1:So it's that sacrificial, like caring for somebody when they can't care for themselves. Almost you know exactly and I do.
Speaker 2:I like to think too, just like I thought of this example before, just like when, so like with little kids, like when they're little, if they go outside and they like skin their knee right, it's like our natural inclination just to like scoop them up right and just say, oh you. So like with little kids, like when they're little, if they go outside and they like skin their knee right, it's like our natural inclination just to like scoop them up Right and just say, oh, you know how are you Okay, and let's take you inside, let's fix it. Let's like, let's clean off the wound. Let's like put some ointment on it and a bandaid whether or not that's supposed to do anymore, I don't know, but you know for them. And I think that's what we want to be able to do with grief, right and like we want that so badly. But you know that that just isn't how this type of situation is is fixed, you know what I mean. It's not just fixable, just like that Right. It's not just like it is a wound, but it's not a wound that we can tangibly fix right away.
Speaker 2:And when we are caring for someone who is grieving, we have to be, you know, aware of how we are taking care of ourselves right and we talked about this before we started and really encouraging someone to, you know, get the help that they need.
Speaker 2:Right, because for some people they may not be comfortable, you know, going to therapy or talking to someone and being someone who feels safe for them to talk to that about, about what it is that they might be fearful of or what their concerns are, or you know what that might look like and sort of working that out with them, like if there's any barriers to care there.
Speaker 2:And I think that you know taking a temp check for yourself on your own resources, because you know we talked too about compassion, fatigue and essentially what that is is like you get to the point where you lack empathy, right, because you are pouring, pouring, pouring from an empty cup and you are no longer having the capacity to, you know, just continue to give. So I think, before it gets to that point because it can, um, being in mental health, we understand that as well that you are making sure your resources are online right, like you are getting the support that you need, you are sleeping well, you are eating well and you are nourishing your body and giving yourself what you need in order to be the support to that person.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think, I think that's the other side of the spectrum of whelming people, may you know, on one side they might be somewhat dismissive because they're uncomfortable with it and on the other side of it they might be a little too over-functioning and to the point of their own, you know, burnout, or their own fatigue, because you know they're almost not creating space for the person grieving to go seek that support in the places and spaces that can be a container for them. And I know we talked about like peer community and really going to a deeply rooted, you know grief, focused therapist that you know those are places that can really be the container for somebody to process through this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and to feel safe, right, and we talked about that shared experience and how important that can be. And I know in my own experience of grief, it wasn't until I met other people who had experienced what I experienced, and I'll never forget the first time I sat down in this group I was like, wow, I feel seen and understood in a way that I have been not even knowing that I wanted until I got here and and I just it's, it's, it's, there really is something to being like. Yeah, I get it, I get it, I see you and I get how painful that is. And, although our experiences are not exactly the same, we are able to connect and understand each other in a way that you know others might not be able to, and and as human beings, we we seek that kind of connection and commonality anyway, right, but in this very unique, intense experience it can be very, very helpful. So definitely.
Speaker 1:And I think something you pointed out was you know earlier was that oftentimes, if we're not in community that hasn't had that same shared experience, sometimes our identity becomes grief related right Like I know an experience was like since none of my friends had experienced that before, there was almost like you know, she's the one who lost her sister. She's like, oh okay, that's overshadowing like just wanting to genuinely go out and meet new people and stuff. So I think in those peer communities you kind of get to be yourself again. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, you get to be processing the grief. Processing the grief versus a loved one who lost their person, you know Right.
Speaker 2:Absolutely no. I think that's a great point.
Speaker 1:Well, this has been just a very, I think, beautiful conversation and Taylor doesn't know this, but before we started recording she told me that she saw there was a cardinal outside her window and we you know those of you that don't know cardinals are kind of a symbol of our loved ones coming to kind of comfort us and let us know that the veil between the here and there is really not that thick and, interestingly enough, while we were recording, I have a window right over here to my left and a cardinal fluttered up to the window twice. So very interesting little play out in our conversation. So we really appreciate everybody listening, everybody watching and those that are here and those that are not. Yes, absolutely Thank you, and I would love to put a link Taylor to your blog so everybody listening know that I'll be putting her bio in the description. There will also be kind of like a timeline of everything that was talked about in this.
Speaker 1:Any socials that Taylor wants to share, where you can find her. If you're looking to work with a therapist around this topic or any of the other topics that Taylor really is just extremely proficient in, please click on that and we'd be happy to set you up with her, but we'll also put a link to her blog, because it was really beautifully written and just a really great example of how to be in this space with people. So thanks again for joining, taylor. It was so lovely to have you on here. I can't wait to have you on for many more. All right, thank you everyone for listening and we'll see you next time. Bye, bye.
